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GP

It's nice to see that people still read my blog :-)

Yes, I do have lower expectations of black South Africans in general. This because they were denied educational opportunities, and capital in the past, as a group. Apartheid was designed to make black people as a group less capable than whites, it did succeed, unfortunately.

When I deal with previously disadvantaged individuals, I do subconciously wonder if they got there because of their skin colour and affirmative action.

Of course, when I deal with incompetant white people, I have similar thoughts - did they get their positions because of connections under the previous regime? Where would they have been if they were not coddled by Apartheid?

Is this racist? Probably. But one can't legislate human nature or attitudes. When a group of people gains from discrimination, people from other groups (and even from the same group), will automatically question whether the individual members of that group would have been able to make it on a level playing field.

I will consider the rest of your points at a later stage.

Rethabile

Oh yes, we do read your blog. Please keep writing it.

Your reason for having lower expectations from black people is "valid," but remains unsatisfactory. Perhaps that is because [1.] the subject we're talking about is not cartesian but is emotional, and is about people.

Yes, Apartheid was designed to make black people "less capable than" white people, but even if it succeeded (which I don't believe), affirmative action seeks only to hire the black person, the woman and the disabled person when they are as capable of doing the job as any other candidate. Whatever Apartheid might have done to people in this designated group, [2.] they're there for the job with a diploma in hand and experience on their slate, just like the white person!

This is not at all like a white person being hired solely on the basis of skin colour, which often happened in the past. Sure, there were probably many white people who got jobs in that way, but who also had diplomas and experience. It wasn't always the case, however. I must say again that I understand the reason you put forth, but I think it isn't strong enough to justify your expectations with regard to service from black professionals.

And keep blogging.

xavier

why is it that black people must apologize for affirmative action or see it as wrong. The premise of your post (that people actually get jobs because of merit) is totally ridiculous. While going to a top school and getting good marks on your exams helps it doesn't ensure anything. People often get jobs because of who they know, or because they "can fit in". I know this because I have been on many a hiring committee where people were hired on the basis of a recommendation from the 'right' person or because they belonged to the same fraternal organization, the same church, just seemed 'nice', went to the same varsity, etc. People who were on paper more qualified did not even get the interview much less the job. I wish people would stop pretending that there is some neutral thing out there called 'merit' and realize that getting a job has little to do with your 'qualifications' particularly in this age where with the exception of a few specialized professions, (medicine and engineering being two of them) most people with a degree can be trained to do most jobs. 'Merit' is an ideological tool used to keep people out of certain positions, particularly people of colour and women.

Rethabile Masilo

"why is it that black people must apologize for affirmative action or see it as wrong?"
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They shouldn't, and it isn't wrong. I see it as something that, although necessary, condones negative stereotypes that others have of black people.


"The premise of your post (that people actually get jobs because of merit) is totally ridiculous."
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The premise of my post is that people don't, but should, get jobs according to merit, yes. If not, then everybody across the spectrum should have equal chances. There should not be any short-listing based on colour.


"I wish people would stop pretending that there is some neutral thing out there called 'merit' and realize that getting a job has little to do with your 'qualifications' particularly in this age where with the exception of a few specialized professions, (medicine and engineering being two of them) most people with a degree can be trained to do most jobs."
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Then let those people who do get jobs through means other than qualification and experience... let those people be black, too. And white. And Indian. And "coloured." Let everyone who knows someone, who is a member of the right organization, worships in such and such a church, etc... let those people all get jobs that way, not only a certain section of the population.


My point is less to extol people getting a job by merit, but more to discredit having only some people getting a job by non-merit. Other than that, you took the words of your comment right out of my mouth. I agree with you on how people do get hired in the real world.

Juan

I do not see why GP needs to make comments like, blacks were denied educational opportunities,in order to quantify his stance.

How did whites deny them education?
By tying them up and not allowing them to learn?
Since when did it become our responsibility to educate other cultures?

Since you advocate so strongly that your culture is equal to mine?

Give me proof of where you invented something or built something that we cant or couldnt?

Or did we steal your brick making techniques and sand too?

My arguments might seem like typical colonialist arguments, but history has very few instances that help YOUR arguments.

We built these universities that you now claim as yours.

Your arguments that AA is justified are all based on a belief that you would have built all this and achieved all this if we had never come here.

Again history, nor the present, offer much proof to assist you.

Rethabile

I decided to reply to Juan with a separate post: http://mzansiafrika.typepad.com/mzansi_afrika/2006/04/did_we_steal_yo.html

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